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Carnival of Blogs on Golden Era of Hindi Film Music

Carnival of Blogs on Golden Era of Hindi Film Music – September, 2018

Welcome to September, 2018 edition of Carnival of Blogs on Golden Era of Hindi Film Music.

Our focused topic for the month of September, 2018 is R K Studios, one of the last icons of the Golden Era of Film-making.RK Studios: The final curtainMadhu Jain – With the Kapoors deciding to sell the iconic studio that was destroyed last year in a fire, a slice of film history has been lost forever – RK Films was in effect a Nargis-Raj Kapoor banner for a few years. Nargis played a much greater role in RK films than is widely known and acknowledged: supervising the lighting on occasion, going into the production details, recognizing the potential of the actress Nadira, giving generously when the money was needed, and much more. She was alongside him through much of their golden years together. They were in sixteen films together, beginning with Aag in 1948 and ending with Jaagte Raho in 1956.

And, now, we take up the tributes in September 2018:

Tere mandir ka hoon deepak jal raha, by Vijay Kumar – Pankaj Mullick’s voice had a clarity and a boom that, I am certain, would have reached the man in the last row of a listening audience, without the aid of a mike…He had the voice of a supreme bhakt!

Happy Birthday Lata Didi presents Lata Mangeshkar’s duets or trios with other Mangeshkar sisters.

Madan Mohan’s tuning with Lata Mangeshkar – For all the shared background and their lofty personal bonding, it has ever remained a mystery for many of music lovers as to why Madan Mohan did not use Lata Mangeshkar’s voice in his first film……

The title of the post – Lata Mangeshkar and S D Burman gave Bollywood many Immortal Songs – is a complete statement in itself.

Happy 92nd Birthday, Noor Jehan! has a recently updated playlist of Noor Jehan songs.

O Nigahen Mastana – the most romantic songs ever created by any music director, in which female singer simply hums her part.

The One and Lonely Kidar Sharma: An Anecdotal Autobiography and Anirudha Bhattacharjee and Balaji Vittal’s ‘S D Burman: The Prince Musician’ are the book reviews.

70 Years ago Dev Anand got his first Hit FilmLata Mangeshkar and S D Burman gave Bollywood many Immortal Songs  as Ziddi, in 1948.

Hats off to Dev Anand – Dev Anand was known for very different hats /caps/headgears in different films, He was also very fond of these in his personal life as well.

Dev Anand’s dreams that couldn’t be Fulfilled  gives us a view of Dev Anand’s unfulfilled projects.

In Memory of Dev Anand’s birthday are the songs that Hemant Kumar played back the screen.-

Guide: A Spiritual Odyssey – Dev Anand’s creative effort reached its apogee in Navketan’s Guide, a film that accommodates more than one perspective. On the occasion of Dev Anand’s birth anniversary (he would have been 95 today), Vijay Kumar relives the finer points of one of the finest Hindi films ever made, exploring its streams and currents of thoughts and views.

G P Sippy- A carpet merchant to the maker of Sholay – G P Sippy had turned a construction magnate and then plunged into filmmaking in 1951 with the Dev Anand film Sazaa and rolling of as many 17 films in his career.

60 Years of Madhumati which was released on 12 September, 1958, swept off a big gate collection and a host of awards.

The Musical Journey Of Asha Bhosle is a tribute to her on her birthday (8th September, 1933)

Asha sings for Madan Mohan – I and Asha sings for Madan Mohan – II, are the solos songs and duets/trios etc. respectively.

Roshan aur Madan Mohan ki Asha draws some parallels and some not so parallels in the patterns willingness of the use of Asha Bhosle by these music directors.

Messenger of Love and Peace – 7th September, 2018 is the 40th anniversary of P L Santoshi. The post lists just a few more of his wonderful songs, with the films and singers mentioned. Let us hear this one – Tum Se Hai Pyar Mujhe Tum Se Hai Pyar – Teen Batti Char Rasta (1953)

King of Ghazal Talat Mahmood with Ghazal Maestros Madan Mohan and Roshan and Best of Mukesh by Roshan and Madan Mohan are the two articles in Soy’s series on Roshan and Madan  Mohan that provide finer insight to the use of these two singers by these two music directors.

That Salil Chowdhry – A Creative Genius is evident from the fact that he was Composer, Music Arranger, Poet, Story writer and much more .

The Masters: Rajinder Krishan is a collection of his songs composed by Madan Mohan, and then a select compilation of his work with other directors.

The Guitar That Sang is the recollections of an elder brother of a nine-year older brother, David Vernon (Verni) Liddle, who was a guitarist who played for some of the greatest hits of Hindi cinema.

Sadhana – One photograph that changed her life!  was published in the famous film paper “Screen” publicizing the Sindhi Film “Abaana”.

Piya aiso jiya mein samaye, by Vijay Kumar – Meena Kumari never looked so beautiful, and so fully subsumed in her role, as in this song. An anticipation of a rendezvous in privacy is writ large on her persona. Shakeel too understood the नज़ाकत of the situation and penned words befitting his stature as the poet of romance. And Geeta sang it effortlessly as if giving voice to her own emotions.

September, 2018 episode of Fading Memories, Unforgettable Songs is dedicated (Shankar-) Jaikishan and Hasrat Jaipuri’s Songs Fading From the Memory 1955 – 1957

We have two more articles nearer to this subject: Jaiksihan ‘s forte was romantic and western tunes and Hasrat Jaipuri – A Love Letter written in Real Life becomes Immortal in Reel in the form of Ye Mera Prempatra Padhkar……The post lists other Hasrat Jaipuri romantic songs in tribute to him.

And, now the posts on other subjects:

Some of the Great Background Songs of Bollywood – Songs being heard from the background has been a very important genre for Hindi Films. The post has listed many known songs, in alphabetical order.

Aaj Kal Tere Mere Pyar Ke Charche – Brahmachari – Talk Of The Town – Gossip, the communication spreading through the grape wineyard, is autothermic, and once initiated, by a topic like the one in the preceding article, then is almost unstoppable.

In praise of visible film craft is about the simplistic idea that the elements of filmmaking mustn’t draw attention to themselves.

Royal Singing – It is often observed in popular culture that royals do not sing anything; if they do, many people think they should not be doing so. That’s because the arts—especially the performing kind—are seen as trivial affairs. The post lists some songs that were lip-synched by Kings, Queens, Princes and Princesses on Hindi film screen. Actors who portrayed the royals are mentioned too.

Shola Jo Bhadke – Albela – Sparks Of Love – The Cuban percussion at the beginning played by Chic Chocolate warns you of the fire that is about to spread. Geeta Bali herself looking like a luminous spark of that fire, with a Hawaiian lei around her neck, a floral top and a wraparound skirt.

Hindi songs featuring Umbrella, have included the songs where the prop, umbrella is seen throughout the song or at least for a significant portion of the song. Also someone has to handle the umbrella, if it’s just kept there, even if open won’t count for the list.

Badi Der Se Megha Barsa – Namkeen – Withering Woes – There are some who might flaunt that wait when it is over. The show off of that wait you have gone through to your partner might take the romance in your life several notches up. Of course the flaunt is merely a charade to spice up the romance. From here begins the roothna-manaanaa and all the banter. It will also be a treat if this charade of flaunt is in Asha Bhonsle’s voice.

‘Heroine teasing Hero’ songs – Hero ‘Chhed Chhading’ the heroine is a relatively common scenario in Hindi films, but the exact opposite is not that common. No seductive songs are included, as those songs are usually a part of a trap arranged for the hero. So even if it sounds like a teasing song, they don’t count. And, the target should be one single person and not men in general or a group of boys.

Two princes or two paupers? Parvarish, and an identity non-crisis – In view of the SC of India verdict on the Section 377 verdict, the fluidity of identity (sexual and other kinds) assumes a deeper meaning. Here is a reminder of an egalitarian 1950s Hindi film that simply sidesteps the identity question and even lampoons those who get all hot and bothered about it.

Of Trees And Hindi Film Songs – If ecologically, tress provide much needed oxygen, then they also provide a ready nourishment to human love, particularly between a male and a female.

The Ring Given to Suraiya by Dev Anand is still lying in the Arabian Sea – The real story revealed by Dev Anand in his autobiography” Romancing with Life” It was Suraiya herself who threw the ring far into the sea of Bombay only after the last meeting with Dev Anand….It was on the advice of his elder brother Chetan Anand that the actor decided to end his relationship with the actress and concentrate on his film career. While Dev eventually overcame the trauma of a broken relationship and moved on, Suraiya decided not to get married.

Can’t Play Sad Music – One of the world’s most charming musical instruments, the frame drum called tambourine has featured importantly in hundreds of our songs, but yet has unfortunately not been judged in the light it has deserved. This is true not just here, but abroad as well…In India it is called the daffli. Now the daffli also has a big brother called Daff, which is typically a similar frame drum, except much bigger,

The post lists The Songs shot in Shimla or nearby locations

Ventriloquism in Hindi Films is a well-researched post, on an interesting subject.

We continue Micro View of Best songs of 1947: And the winners are? with female solo songs, wherein after having covered solo songs of Suraiya and Geeta Roy,  Shamshad Begum. Rajkumari, Amirbai Karnataki (Part I and Part II) Zohrabai Ambalewali (Part I and Part II), we have now covered Khursheed, Noor Jehan & Kanan Devi, Meena Kumar, Naseem Akhtar and Zeenat Begum, Lalita Deulkar, Sharda Gangul and Mohantara, Paro Devi, Menakabai & Saroj Welingkar, Hamida Bano, Beenapani Mukherjee, Sitara Devi & Lata Mangeshkar in ‘other’ female singers. We have also presented a post that has presented Female Solos that I liked in 1947. We have also moved to Duets of 1947 with those of Mukesh with other female playback singers.

In our tradition of ending our post with article on Mohammad Rafi or a topical song of his, I have picked up one SoY post, one video clip and a few songs that basically have link with the topics discussed in the present post.

The story behind the song”Chahoonga Main Tujhe Saanj Savere” that tells how the song got in from nowhere.

Rsavare Matvare Kajarare Nain Tihare – Holiday in Bombay (1963) – with Balbir – N Dutta – P L SAntoshi

Le Gaya Zalim Ghari Samaja Ke Mera Dhadakata Dil – Bombay Race Course (1965) – Madan Mohan – Rajinder Krishna

Kisi Se Hamne Ye Poochha Mohabbat Kisa Ko Kahate Hai – Garibi (1949) – Bulo C Rani – Rajinder Krishna

O Gawalan Ku Mera Man Teri Chitwan Le Gayi  – Champakali (1957) – Hemant Kumar – Rajinder Krishna

I earnestly seek your suggestions / inputs / criticisms so as to make our Film Blog Festival more interesting and live.

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I Liked Music from films

The Micro View of Best Songs of 1947 : The Male Female Duets : Duets of Mukesh

The Duets

We now take up the third leg – The Duets – of ‘Best songs of 1947: And the winners are?’. As per our Micro View Practice, we will cover this leg of the Micro View journey in three stages – Male-Female Duets, Male- Male Duets and Female-Female Duets.

The Male Female Duets

The male female duets have been accorded almost equal respect as that accorded to male or female solo songs. Many of the male female duets have been accepted as the benchmark milestones as are some male or female solo songs have been accepted as the benchmark milestones in the Hindi Film Music.

My back of the envelope notes quickly separated duets of Mukesh, and to some extent those of Mohammad Rafi, from the other male-female duets – first, in terms of numbers, and then, in terms of my familiarity of these duets.

Duets of Mukesh 

Mukesh has an overwhelmingly share in the Male-Female Duet space for 1947. The quality of spread, in terms of music directors, as well as co-singers, is equally overwhelming. As a result, we can hear different shades of Mukesh’s inherent tonal range.

Mukesh, Hamida Bano – Door Kahi Door Kahi Is Jag Se Duniya Ham Tum Nayi Basaye – But Tarash – Gulam Haidar – Amin Gilani

Mukesh, Shamshad Begum – Moti Chugane Gayi Re Hansi, Man Sarovar Teer – Chhin Le Azadi – Hansraj Behl –  Pandit Indra

Mukesh, Suraiya – Jab Badal Ghir Ghir Aaenge, Kaho Ji Kit Jaenge – Dak Bangla – Naresh Bjattachary – D N Madhok

Mukesh, Rajkumari – Hamare Saiya Daaru Pee Ke Aaye, Aa ke Hamein Bulaye – Do Dil – Govind Ram – D N Madhok

Mukesh, Suraiya – Maati Ka But Bha Gaya, Dil Hi To Hai Aa Gaya – Do Dil – Govind Ram – D N Madhok

Mukesh, Suraiya – Kagaz Ki Meri Nav Aur Doot Kinara Hai – Do Dil – Govind Ram – D N Madhok

Mukesh, Hamida Bano – Dekh Hamein Muskaraye Kyon Balamawa Sajanwa  – Duniya Ek sarai – Hans Raj Behl – Kedar Sharma

Mukesh, Geeta Roy, Chorus – Watan Ki Maati Haath Mein Le Kar, Mathe Tilak Laga Le – Gaon – Khemchand Prakash – D N Madhok

Mukesh, Johrabai – Patthar Se Tum Dudh Bahao Aag Se Phool Khilao – Neel Kamal – B Vasudev – Kedar Sharma

Mukesh, Johrabai  – Pyar Se Ham Ko Kaleje Se Janno Tum Na Lagao To Kaun Lagaye – Neel Kamal – B Vasudev – Kedar Sharma

Mukesh, Hameeda Bano –Sochata Kya Hai Sudarshan Ke Chalanewale  – Neel Kamal – B Vasudev – Kedar Sharma

Mukesh, Hameeda Bano – Jeene Ki Surat Ho Gai Aur Teri Badaulat Ho Gayi – Tohfa – M A Rauf – Nazir Hyderabadi

Mukesh, Hameeda Bano – Mohabbat Kar.. Jawani Hai Jawani Hai – Tohfa – M A Rauf – Nazir Hyderabadi

We will Micro View Duets of Mohammad Rafi and those of G M Durrani in our next episode.

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Carnival of Quality Management Articles and Blogs Management System Standards

Carnival of Quality Management Articles and Blogs – September, 2018

Welcome to September, 2018 edition of Carnival of Quality Management Articles and Blogs.

In our present September, 2018 issue, we will expand the new principle –  Risk Based Auditing –  propounded in ISO 19011: 2018  We have found a few good articles on this subject from the field of financial auditing, too.

What is risk-based auditing? – Meaning, process and importance of risk-based auditing has presented the subject in a non-technical language.

Risk-based Auditing – Staying vigilant to change and risk is a top priority of good corporate governance and the internal audit function. In his latest InternalAuditor.org video blog, IIA President and CEO Richard Chambers discusses the risk-based audit approach, including three components of risk-based auditing and three strategies for monitoring risk.

Managing Risks in Management Systems Auditing Frameworks – Jacob McLean

ISO 19011: 2018 version now explicitly focuses on Risk-based auditing – or focusing audit effort on matters of significance to the management system.

Exploring the revised ISO 19011:2018Hope Kiwekete

  • This time around, appreciation of the risk-based approach will essentially be a critical determinant when scheduling, conducting and reporting of audits.

This will prompt auditors to overcome the dilemma of hastily jumping into auditing without familiarising themselves with the means that management uses to control their functions.

  • As shown in figure 1, clause 5.3: Determining and evaluating audit programme risks and opportunities, forms part of audit programme process.
  • The planning of the audit (clause 6.3) also raises the bar up and makes use of high degree of professional judgement by the internal auditor now a very important attribute of the auditor.
  • There has been a significant improvement on what constitutes essential competencies that management-systems’ auditors need to possess or acquire. Hence auditors need to continually upskill and remain relevant while adding value to their clients.

Incorporating Risk-Based Thinking into Internal Quality Audits for ISO 9001 – In this webinar by expert speaker Duke Okes will explain how to use risk-based thinking in the quality management system. You will get simple tools for assessing risks within a QMS process. Further, you will understand how to report audit nonconformities from a risk-based perspective.

We will now turn to our regular sections:

For the present episode we have picked up Jim Champy’s article Keeping it Simple

@ Essential Management for Doers, Doubters and Darers column of Management Matters Network….One of Peter Drucker’s great virtues was the simplicity with which he articulated management principles. For instance: he defined “strategy” as: (1) understand where your company is today; (2) where you want it to go; and (3) how you are going to get there. Here are some rules that spell importance of simplicity and directness in presenting ideas and communicating them to others:

  1. Know what you’re talking about
  2. Forget the jargon and code words
  3. Own your ideas
  4. Make your ideas real

We now watch one of the latest ASQ TV  episodes:

  • Blockchain and Quality – One of the terms you often hear when discussing Quality 4.0 or Industry 4.0 is blockchain. Maybe its most well-known use currently is for bitcoin, the crypto-currency. But what is blockchain exactly and how does it, or will it, relate to the quality industry? Let’s take a look.

“Quality and Innovation with Blockchain Technology”, Software Quality Professional Magazine, 2017

“Blockchain for Supply Chain: Improving Transparency and Efficiency Simultaneously”, Software Quality Professional Magazine, 2018

  • Digital Transformation – When we hear terms like Industry 4.0 and Quality 4.0, they may seem too broad for you and your organization to be able to take any specific action. Where do you start? One place to start is by doing what’s called a digital transformation.

Quality Experience Telemetry

Jim L. Smith’s Jim’s Gems posting for August, 2018 is:

  • Commit to Success – Success requires discipline, hard work, perseverance, tenacity, will, courage and faith. It’s the quality of their commitment that separates the good players from the great ones. People who are committed to success are willing to do whatever it takes, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else. Everything they do reflects their commitment.
  • Creativity – The mind is like any other muscle: the more we use it, the stronger it gets. Creativity is simply doing something differently. Bottom line, if we want to be more creative, all we have to do is increase our idea failure rate.

I look forward to your inputs / criticisms/ observations to enhance the utility of our Quality Management Blog Carnival.

Note: The images depicted here above are through courtesy of respective websites who have the copyrights for the respective images.

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I Liked Music from films

The Micro View of Best Songs of 1947 : Female Solo Songs – MY Top Female Solo Songs

When I look back at all the female solo songs for 1947 that we have micro viwed here, of more than 270 songs there are a very few that I had heard (often enough). I have tried quite hard to listen to all others that I have heard for the first time. When all is said and done, the fact remains that my best efforts are still not enough to understand the style of song composition as well style of singing that can match my years of conditioning to the the corresponding styles of the later- (so called) Golden –years.  I have been able to choose at least one song for each of the female singer that I liked the most from among all of her solos for the year.

So, here is one song each for each of the female singer that have more than one song in the present microview, that I nliked the most:

SuraiyaMere Mundere Na Bol Ja Kaga Kaga Ja – Parwana – Khursheed Anwar – D N Madhok

Geeta RoyYaad Karoge Yaad Karoge Ik Din Ham Ko Yaad Karoge – Do Bhai – S D Burman – Raja Mahendi Ali Khan

Shamshad BegumAnagana Bole Kaag Re Ujjada Man Ka Baag Re– Doli- Ghulam Muhammad – Nazim Panipati

RajkumariSharam Se Naina. More Naina Zuk Zuk Jaaein – Dehati – Premnath – Rammurti Chaturvedi

Amirbai KarnatakiHumein Kya Pata Tha …Maar Katari Mar Jaana – Shehnai – C Ramchandra – P L Santoshi

Zohrabai Ambalewali Lo Phir Raat Chanadani Aayee, Dil Mera Deve Tujhe Duhai – Gaon – Khemchand Prakash – D N Madhok

KhursheedNaache Hai Man Mauj Magan Mein, Jyun Naache Hai Mor Chaman Mein – Manjhdhar – Ghulam Haider – Shams Lakhanavi

Noor Jehan  – Aa Ja Tujhe Afsana Judai Ka Sunaein – Mirza Sahiban – Pt. Amarnath + Husnalal Bhagatram – Qamar Jalalabadi

Kanan DeviAsha Deep Jalayo Sajan – Tum Aur Main – Robin Chatterjee – Zakir Hussain

Meena KumariAkhiyan Taras Rahi Un Bin – Piya Ghar Aaja – Bulo C Rani – Pt. Indra

Naseem AkhtarBhule Se Kabhi Yad Kar Ae Bhulanewale – Ek Roz – Shyam Sundar – Sarshar Sailani

Zeenat BegumPade Ishq Mein Jaan Ke Ham Ko Lale – Aaj Aur Kal – Khursheed Anwar

Paro DeviMain Hoon Baag Ki Koyal Raja Ho – Heera – Husnlal Bhagatram- Munshi Shams Lakhanavi

Lalita Deulkar  – Chor Aa Gaye Nagariya Hamar, Nanad Jara Jaagana – Saajan – C Ramchandra – Rammurti Chaturvedi

MohantaraMain Parbat Khadi Pukarun, Balamwa Aa Re – Woh Zamana – Bulo C Rani – Pt. Indra

Hamida BanoHamara Master Khuda Kare Beemar Ho Jae – Dekhojee – Sabir Hussain – Wali Sahab

Beenapani MukherjeeNaian Jal Bhar Aaye – Samrat Ashok – Gyan Dutt – Shams Lakhanavi

SitaraSoz–e-Gam Deke Mujhe Usne Ye Irshad Kiya – Shahzadi – S K

Lata Mangeshkar – Pa Lagu Kar Jori Re – Aap Ki Sewa Mein – Datta Davjekar – Mahipal

1947 had two films on the subject of Meera.

One was a remake of Tamil version.  Young M S Suubulakshmi has rendered all songs in both versions. Obviously, one may pick any one, or in all probabilities all, of the songs that she would render. I have just selected one here:

M S SubbulakshmiPag Gungaru Re – Meera – S.V.Venkatraman, G.Ramanathan & Naresh Bhattacharya

The other one had all songs rendered by Sitara Kanpuri. Again, we do want avoid any obvious comparison between the two. So, here is one for the records:

Sitara KanpuriJo Tum Chhodo PIya – Meera – S K Pal

In the summing up article, Best songs of 1947: Wrap Up 2, SoY has quite usefully presented Lata Mangeshkar’s ‘first’ songs. The wrap –up analysis has adjudged Suraiya as the Best Playback Singer for 1947.

We will take up Duets for the year 1947 in our next Micro-View.

 

P.S. All the episodes of The Micro View of Best Songs of 1947 : Female Solo Songs can be read  / downloaded from one file by clicking on the hyper link.

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I Liked Music from films

S D Burman and “Other” Male Playback Singers :: [3]

We are now in the last leg of our series of S D Burman composed songs in the voices of ‘Other’ Male Singers. In the first part, we had covered S D Buman’s Other Male Songs for the initial years – 1946-1949 – of his career. In the second part, we had covered the years 1950 to 1960, when S D Burman had begun to rise to the peak of his career.

Presently, we will cover the years from 1960 till the end of S D Burman’s active career in Hindi Film Music world. From ‘Pyasa’ (1957) S D Burman had predominantly shifted to Mohammad Rafi as the lead singer till he started tiling towards Kishore Kumar, beginning with ‘Teen Deviyan’ (1965), barring a few exceptions. Therefore, one can easily expect that S D Burman would have used ‘Other’ Male Singers for the non-lead protagonists in the songs that we will get to listen in this third part. And, yet, the choice of a particular ‘Other’ Male Singer still presents an interesting insight into S D Burman’s process of selecting a singer for his tunes.

S D Burman – Mahendra Kapoor

Mahendra Kapoor had to remain under the shadow of Mohammad Rafi’s dazzling success. He had had quite close association with Mohammad Rafi and did execute Rafi’s advice of creating his own style of singing, which helped him to carve out his own respectable space within the Rafi-dominated era.

Piya…Piya Bin Nahin…Aavat Chain…Mil Gaye Milnewale ..Ab Ghar Mein Baithe Kazi, Keh Do Ji Keh Do, Hai Miya Bibi Razi….. – Miya Bibi Raazi (1960) – with Asha Bhosle – Lyrics: Shailendra

The song is filmed on three pairs of actors on the screen – Mehmood and Seema Saraf (a.k.a Seema Deo);  Shrikant Guarav – who, according to Shri Arunkumar Deshmukh, is Shailesh Mukherjee, the music director of films like Suhag Sindoor (1953), Parichay (1954), Saavera(1958) and a singer (Dekha Chand Ki Aur –Aag [1949] – and Kamini Kadam and third not-known-names pair, who initiate the performance of the song in what is known as street performance style. S D Burman had used Rafi for Mehmood as well as Shailesh Mukherjee in this film, and yet, he has chosen Mahendra Kapoor for this song !

Mera Kya Sanam Meri Khushi Hai Tumhari,Are Haste Ho Jab Muskarati Hu Main – Talaash (1969) – with Asha Bhosle – Lyrics: Majrooh Sultanpuri

We have jumped from 1960 to 1969 for a second of S D Burman – Mahendra Kapoor song. By this time Mahendra Kapoor had already established himself a successful lead male singer and had had sewed up strong tie-ups with B R Chopra- Ravi or with Manoj Kumar, and in fact was to replace Rafi when O P Nayyar had a tiff with Rafi. It is said that he was chosen here because of insistence of the producer, O P Ralhan, on whom this song is filmed on the screen.  Mahendra Kapoor has even been given enough space in the delivery of the song to freely practice his by-now—well-known playful style for such jazzy song.

S D Burman – S D Batish

S D (Shiv Dayal) Batish was a trained classical singer. He commenced his career in early Hindi Films as a music director, who would sing too.  He migrated to UK in 1964 where he regular recorded songs with BBC. S D Burman has used S D Batish, in two songs, in the role of the music teacher.

Poochho Na Kaise Maine Rain Bitaayee – Meri Soorat Teri Ankhen (1963) – with Manna Dey and an unknown female singer – Lyrics: Shailendra

Perhaps more known version of this song is the solo version by Manna Dey, but in this version S D Batish has played his role of a teacher quite comfortably and effortlessly.

Man Mohan Man Mein Ho Tumhi….More Ang Mein Tumhi Samaye, Jaano Na Jaano Ho Yumhi – Kaise Kahoon  (1964) – with Mohammad Rafi and SumanKalyanpur – Lyrics:  Shakeel Badayuni

This triad also remains a very well-known classical raag- based song.

S D Burman and Bhupinder

As is well-known, Bhupinder Singh debuted with playback singing in Haqeequat (1964), but it may not be equally known that he was also an accomplished guitarist. As a guitarist, he was an integral part of R D Burman’s orchestra team. That connection seems to have made the opening up a space for Bhupinder to sing for a couple of S D Burman’s songs.

Hothon Pe Aisi Baat – Jewel Thief (1967) – (mainly) Lata Mangeshakr, and chorus – Lyrics: Majrooh Sultanpuri

Bhupinder’s maiden association with SD Burman is simply as a piece of orchestra, a la RDB style. Film director Vijay Anand has very deftly used Bhupinder’s piece filmed on Dev Anand and lent a very different meaning to the song picturizatiion.

Yaaron Nilam Karo Susti, Hamse Udhar Le Lo Masti – Prem Pujari (1970) – with Kishore Kumar – Lyrics : Neeraj

This is what can be classified as a Jeep-genre song. Bhupinder playback sings for Anup Kumar.

S D Burman and Danny Denzongpa

Again it may be well-known that Danny Denzongpa (born Tshering Phintso Denzongpa) was a highly talented actor. But that he was a good singer is not so known. He has even directed a film, and was a good painter, writer and sculptor too.

Mera Naam Yaao, Mere Paas Aao – Yeh Gulistan Hamara (1972) – with Lata Mangeshkar – Lyrics: Anand Bakshi

S D Burman has made a very surprising choice of Danny to playback for Jonny Walker. The song had shot to good popularity in those days, and had reached 14th position in Binaca Geetmala in that year.

S D Burman and Manhar

Manhar Udhas, though qualified in mechanical engineering, was keen to make a career in music. He did succeed in the pursuit of his life goal.

Loote Koi Man Ka Nagar Ban Ke Mera Saathi – Abhimaan (1973) – with Lata Mangeshkar – Lyrics: Majrooh Sultanpuri

Probably, the choice of Manhar to playback for Amitabh Bachchan was to clearly demonstrate the quality of singing of the two protagonists in the film. Nonetheless, the song did stand its ground against all other songs of Abhimaan.

S D Burman – Sunil Kumar, R S Bedi

Of these two singers, I could not get any information about Sunil Kumar. R S Bedi should obviously be Rajinder Singh Bedi, a well-known writer and film director as well.

Laali Mere Laal Ki Jit Dekhoo Tit Laal, Phir Raat Hui Ek Baat Hui – Phagun (1973) – with Kishore Kumar, Pankaj Mitra – Lyrics: Majrooh Sultanpuri

The song is predominantly a typical Kishore Kumar tantrum-style songs.

S D Burman – Pankaj Mitra

Pankaj Mitra has had earlier recorded an triad song  and a duet for ‘Sautela Bhai”(1962, Music: Anil Biswas) . He later on, also, has few more films like ‘Grih Pravesh (1979) or ‘Ab Ayega Maza’(1984) to his credit. He obviously has a far better and respectable track-record in Bengali films.

Saala Main To Sahab Ban Gaya – Sagina (1974) – with Kishore Kumar – Lyrics: Majrooh Sultanpuri

Pankaj Mitra plays back for Om Prakash in the song. This is too loud a song, at least under S D Burman’s baton. Of course, Dilip Kumar had acted in a similar loud manner earlier in ‘Gopi’ (1970) too, for a song in a similar situation.

S D Burman – Dilip Kumar

Dilip Kumar had recorded only one song in his own voice till now – Laagi Nahi Chhoote Ram – Musafir, 1957, with Lata Mangeshkar; Music – Salil Chaudhary).

Uparwala Dukhiyon Ki Nahin Sunata Re – Sagina (1974) – With Kishore Kumar – Lyrics: Majrooh Sultnapuri.

S D Burman has used Dilip Kumar’s voice to recite a few lines in the song.

The records do show that S D Burman has used voice of Johnny Walker and R D Burman too for a song each. But these would not be more than either speaking a line or two or as orchestration filler, respectively.

That brings the end of S D Burman’s tryst with ‘Other’ Male Singers. One may conclude that he has mostly used these voices quite creatively, in a somewhat descending order in each of the three phases that we have reviewed in this series. With that it also needs to acknowledge that except in the first phase, most of these songs were at the fringe of the main body of his work in the respective film.

N.B.

All three episodes of S D Burman and “Other” Male Playback Singers can be read in one place by clicking on the hyperlinked title.

All said and done, we are not here to pass any judgement on the songs. Our sole aim was to bring these songs on the same page for the effective documentation.

P.S. For easy access and documentation, all the three episodes are available in one file on  S D Burman and “Other” Male Playback Singers

Categories
I Liked Music from films

The Micro View of Best Songs of 1947 : Female Solo Songs – Other Female Singers and Lata Mangeshkar [5]

Hamida Bano

Hamida Bano is also a member of Hindi Film World’s Lahore club, who had to remain contended with an ‘also ran’ tag in her career. One can see many more of the songs to her crdit in HFGK for 1947, but YT links to all these songs have not yet been established.

Champakali Hai Udaas, Bhanwara Na Jaye Paas – Chhin Le Azadi – Hansraj Behl – Pandit Indra

Hamara Master Khuda Kare Beemar Ho Jae – Dekhojee – Sabir Hussain – Wali Sahab

Hum To Barabaad Hue Ab To Koi Abaad Rahe – Kaun Hamara – Bulo C Rani –

Ham Tumhare Tum Hamare Aao Kare Pyar – Lakon Mein Ek – Hans Raj Behl – Pandit Indra

Tu Kahan Chhupa Bhagwan, Tera Milata Nahi Nishan – Lakon Mein Ek – Hans Raj Behl – Pandit Indra

Beenapani Mukherjee

Lakho Ke Bol Sahe, Sanwariya Tere Liye Maine – Leela – C Ramchandra – G S Nepali

Naian Jal Bhar Aaye – Samrat Ashok – Gyan Dutt – Shams Lakhanavi

Sitara Devi

HFGK mentiones Sitara as the singer for these solo songs. I have there fore assumed that she is Sitara Devi( in any case different than Sitara(Kanpuri)).

Bhoole Se Dil Tujhe Na Bhulaye To Kya Karoon – Amar Asha – Shanti Kumar – Qabil Amrutsari

Soz –e-Gam Deke Mujhe Usne Ye Irshad Kiya – Shahzadi – S K Pal –

Lata Mangeshkar:

It is not for long that Lata Mageshkar will have more than three times the song then most of the other female singers. In fact, we have found it necessary to run the micro view of Hindi Film Songs right from year 1948 onwards werein it is almost Lata Mangeshkar on side and other playback singers on the other.

Ek Naye Rang Mein – Aap Ki Sewa Mein – Datta Davjekar – Mahipal

Pa Lagu Kar Jori Re – Aap Ki Sewa Mein – Datta Davjekar – Mahipal

Ab Kaun Sunega Mere Man Ki Baat – Aap Ki Sewa Mein – Datta Davjekar – Mahipal

Thus ends our rather protracted micro view of solo songs of the female singers for 1947.  However, one will find several solo songs in HFGK that do not appear here. These are the songs that would essentaially belong to quite and unknown singer (as far as I am concerned) and number of songs ) . Moreover the numbers also may either be very insignificant or the YT links of these songs are not available.

In our next episode I plan to sum up My Top Female Solo Songs for 1947.

Categories
Fading Memories….Unforgettable Songs

Fading Memories…. Unforgettable Songs: September, 2018

(Shankar-) Jaikishan and Hasrat Jaipuri’s Songs Fading From the Memory 1955 – 1957

As long as all four were alive Shankar – Jaikishan did not work with any other lyricists than Hasrat Jaipuri and Shailendra, even as Hasrat Jaipuri and Shailendra did work with other music directors in that period, with probably two exceptions. One is O O Mujhe Kisi Se Pyar Ho Gaya from ‘Barsat’ (1949) and the other being Arzoo 1965). However, our topic of the present discussion is not this matter.

September is the month of death anniversary of Jaikishan [4 November, 1929 – 12 September, 1971) and Hasrat Jaipuri [15 April, 1922 – 17 September, 1999].  In our present series we have been covering the songs written by Hasrat Jaipuri that have been composed by Shankar-Jaikishan in the month of September. In September, 2017 we had covered the (S)J-HJ songs from 1949 to 1954.

The quartet had very smoothly carved out a seamless division of work – who would compose whose songs, which situations will be handled by whom etc. In that arrangement Jaikishan and Hasrat Jaipuri worked in tandem.

For our present episode, we have covered (S)J-HJ songs from 1955 to 1957. As I started compiling the list for the post, the songs that came up from the initial films happened to be the songs that had been rendered by Lata Mangeshkar. Therefore, I went on to only select the (S)J-HJ_LM songs for the rest of the present episode, save of course the traditional end-of-the-post Mohammad Rafi song(s)..

Baat Baat Mein Rutho Na, Apane Aap Ko Loota Na – Seema (1955)

Here is typical Jaikishan composition, opening up with a melodious stroke of piano accordion that continues well into the first and the second interlude. Hasrat Jaipuri matches his lyrics well with the mood of the songs, but has not missed the chance to show his soft, poetic feelings in the lyrics.

O Jaanewale Mud Ke Zara Dekh Ke Jaana – Shree  420 (1955)

Here is one of the relatively-less-heard song from the film but is a signature HJ composition which begin with couplet. The second stanza of the song had been edited out in the film.

Main Piya Teri Tu Maane Ya Na Maane – Basant Bahar (1956)

Shailendra had lion’s share of songs for ‘Basant Bahar’, but the ones that HJ penned have also been equally melodious and well-remembered ones. The use of flute pieces in the orchestration add to the melodious effect.

Us Paar Sajan Is Paar Dhare Le Chal O Maaji Kinare Kinare – Chori Chori (1956)

The present video clip has very rightly captured the first few moments of the songs wherein Nargis is seen frantically swimming out in the sea. Jaikishan has captured the motion with a very quick stokes of violin ensemble. And the, Nargis seems to have reached a safe distance, symbolized the beginning of a chorus by the fishermen-women on the boats.

HJ has also additionally contributed one of the most iconic Manna Dey – Lata duets  (Aa Ja Sanam), or  a very lilting Lata song (Panchhi Banu Udati Pheeru) on one hand and a very light Rafi-Lata duet (Tum Arabon Ka Her Pher Karanewale) in the film.

Usse Mil Gayi Nayi Zindagi.. Jise Dard-e-Dil Ne Mita Diya – Halaku (1956)

Hasrat Jaipuri had a minor share of songs in this film too. The other two songs are also Lata Mangeshkar numbers – O Sunata Ja and Bol Mere Malik. Each of these three songs are written for totally different situations.

Koi Mere Sapnon Mein Aaya , Dheere Man Mein  Samaya – New Delhi (1956)

(S)J comes up with a complex tune that is orchestrated equally richly.

Saat Samundar Paar– Patrani (1956)

One more complex tune by (S)J.

I had originally selected “Nadiya Kinare Phiru Pyasi, Haay Pi Bin Jiyara Taras Taras Reh Jaaye” from Raajhath (1956). However, I could not locate audio / video link for this song. So, we move on to the next best choice.

Anatar Mantar Jantar Se Maidan Liya Hai Maar – with Usha Mangeshkar – Rajhath (1956)

As per the general understanding of the outsiders, the dance numbers were usually composed by Shankar. However, in this case, it is difficult to guess who would composed the tune and set it to orchestra.

Gori-Gori-Gori Main Pariyon Ki Chhori… Chham Chham.. Karati Aayi Hun Main Saat Aasma Se – Begunah (1957)

We have one more song wherein a very complex set of bass rhythm has been set, orchestrated over a multiple instruments simultaneously.

(S)J-HJ combination’s duet – Din Albele Pyaar Ka Musam (Manna Dey, Lata) – in the film is a very typical SJ tune.

So Ja Re So Ja Mere Raj Dulhare So Ja Taare Bhi So Gaye Dharati Ke Sitare So Ja– Kathputli (1957)

For Hindi Film lullabies this is very complex tune, perhaps befitting the mood the situation in the films

We conclude our each episode with a relevant Mohammad Rafi song. For the present episode I have picked one of the two songs from – Seema- and one from – Raaj Hath.

Hamien Bhi Dedo Sahara Ke Besahara Hai  – Seema – with chorus.

In terms of the poetical quality of the lyrics of Hasrat Jaipuri songs would go, this song perhaps would occupy top row.  (S)J have also excelled in composing the tune and setting supporting orchestration to the tune.

Aaye Bahar Ban Ke Lubha Kar Chale Gaye, Kya Raaz Tha Dil Mein Chhupa Kar Chale Gaye – Raaj Hath (1956)

(S)J – HJ have grabbed every opportunity to compose a ghazal in Mohamamd Rafi’s voice and we have had excellent scores to cherish. Here is one more that immediately comes to my memory – Teri Zulfo Se Judai To Nahi Maagi Thi  

We will continue remembering Unforgettable Songs that seem to Fading away from our Memories every second Sunday of the month……..

Disclaimer: All images are sourced from net. All copyrights of the respective image remain with the original owner of the image.

Categories
I Liked Music from films

The Micro View of Best Songs of 1947 : Female Solo Songs – Other Female Singers and Lata Mangeshkar [4]

Lalita Deulkar

Lalita Deulkar (1925-2010) did enter Hindi Film World as an actress, but will be certainly remembered as a major female plyabck singer of the vintage era. She has provided playback for the songs in over 60 Hindi Films.

Mandir Suna Deep Bin, Naiya Bin Patwar – Bhakta Druva – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra / Moti B A (?)

Gao Badhai Ri, Suhagan Aangan Aai – Bhakta Druva – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra / Moti B A (?)

Meri Nao Padi Mazdhar, Paar Karo Na Karo – Bhakta Druva – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra / Moti B A (?)

Bhajan Ke Din Do Char Re Janam Maran Tu Sudhar Re – Bhakta Druva – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra / Moti B A (?)

Mera Deepak Jug Jug Jale, Jug Jale, Prakash Failae – Bhakta Druva – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra / Moti B A (?)

Chor Aa Gaye Nagariya Hamar, Nanad Jara Jaagana – Saajan – C Ramchandra – Rammurti Chaturvedi

Sharda Ganguli

Tum Raja Ho, Tum Raja Ho, Hargiz Kisi Se Na Darna – Bhakta Dhruv – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra, Moti B A (?)

Mohanatara

Prabhu Apani Zalak Dikhao, Mohe Adbhut Roop Dikhao – Bhakta Dhruv – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra, Moti B A (?)

Tum Mein Bhi Woh, Ham Mein Bhi Woh, Tum Tum Nahim Ham Ham Nahi – Bhakta Dhruv – Shankar Rao Vyas – Pt. Indra, Moti B A (?)

Main Parbat Khadi Pukarun, Balamwa Aa Re – Woh Zamana – Bulo C Rani – Pt. Indra

Jeevan Ka Mol Hua Anmol, Jai Swadesh – Woh Zamana – Bulo C Rani – Pt. Indra

N.B. We have not included songs fro which audio /video digital links could not be established.

We will conclude the Micro View of Solo Songs of Other Female Singers and Lata Mangeshkar for 1947 in our next episode.

 

Categories
Devdutt Pattanaik - Business Sutra

Business Sutra |8.1| Three pairs of brothers

Business Sutra |8| Family Feuds

We have covered five episodes of Devdutt Pattanaik’ TV serial on CNBC 18:  Business Sutra.

The 1st episode presented to us the most visible form of the business – the corporation: its meaning, its purpose and its action perspective. In the 2nd episode Devdutt Pattanaik discusses Leadership: Role of the leader, Context of the leader and Leadership in different business cycles. The 3rd episode relates to the Business Ethics and Morals:  business ethics and dilemmas, relationship between owner and the organization  and The Right (Dharma) – the Ramayana way and the Mahabharata way. The 4th episode deals with Conflicts, of the Board and the CEO and that of the means vs. ends. The 5th episode takes unto the realm of Education, wherein Part 1 covered the basics of education to the (potential) leaders in Ram’s Education, Part 2 addressed the Knowledge Transfer to Next Gen and Part 3 dealt with the issue of student motivation.  The 6th episode has taken up the oft-discussed topic of ‘measurement’, wherein in the Part 1, What Can Be Measured, dealt with the definitive need for not ‘only measurement’, but for ‘also measurement’ too and Part 2 dealt with mutual importance and dependence of Objectives versus Subjective Reality, whereas Part 3 evaluates ‘What is Your Worth?’ from these measurements perspectives. The 1st segment – Nature is destroyed when culture is created – of 7th episode establishes the inverse relationship between Environment and the human development. 2nd segment – The Environment Strikes Back describes what happens when human growth goes beyond the natural resources.

In the episode 8, Devdutt Pattnaik has picked up a very interesting subject of Family Feuds, so as to connect it up with the (perceived / actual / in-other’s-eyes) self-image.  He picks up the threads of family feuds from the days of Ramayana. Ramayana is a very complex epic, but apparently, it is very simplistically presented by many storytellers. It deals with fundamental issues of humanity such as property. The property is not a natural concept. It is a human construct, and it has shaped human history in dramatic ways. The Ramayana wonders if Ayodhya belongs to Ram or Ram belongs to Ayodhya. What defines Ram? Is it his royalty? He is fettered to the laws of the Raghu clan, but does he derive his self-image from it? Where does our self-image come from? The gap between who we really are and what we derive our identity from is quite stark when we read the Ramayana. Also stark is the relationship between Ram and Laxman. Is the point of existence loyalty or dharma? Are they not one and the same? Loyalty, one realizes, is materialistic virtue, not spiritual virtue. But why? It is the answer to this question which can add value to the sustainability of the organization.

Business Sutra |8.1| Three pairs of brothers

A good part of history, whether western or occidental, can be observed to relate the time line w.r.t. feuds. Most of these feuds would fall into the category of Family Feuds.

The 15 Bloodiest, Most Violent Family Feuds In History – From ancient times until today, the bloodiest family feuds in history are filled with stories of honor, vengeance, politics, and kinship. Though that may sound romantic, it wasn’t: family feuds often resulted in horrifying acts of barbarism and cruelty, like the Black Dinner Massacre. Some violent historical family feuds – like the one between the notorious Hatfields and McCoys – involved different families warring against one another. Others – like the extended family drama that was the War of the Roses – involved civil wars within a single family unit. But no matter how they began or who they involved, the result was always the same: factionalism, violence, and death.

For more detailed analysis of the Family Feuds, from Indian Mythology perspective, we will move on to Segment 1 of the episode 8 wherein Devdutt Pattanaik takes up the subject of Three pairs of brothers

Property is at the center of every epic battle in India and one would invariably find brothers on either side.

The oldest Greek stories are the epics Iliad and Odyssey. The Iliad is the story of last years of total war and Odyssey is the story of the Trojan War. “The Iliad” (Gr: “Iliás”) is an epic poem by the ancient Greek poet Homer, which recounts some of the significant events of the final weeks of the Trojan War and the Greek siege of the city of Troy. It is the story of participation of a Greek hero Achilles in battle, who leads the Greeks to victory and whose withdrawal leads to their defeat  The poem The Odyssey mainly focuses on the Greek hero Odysseus (known as Ulysses in Roman myths), king of Ithaca, and his journey home after the fall of Troy.. The Odyssey is the story of another soldier also for the Trojan War, a Greek warrior called Odysseus (known as Ulysses in Roman myths), king of Ithaca, and his journey home after the fall of Troy. It takes Odysseus ten years to reach Ithaca after the ten-year Trojan War. Both these epics are the narratives of two individuals on journey and what happens to them.

At the same time, India has two stories in the form epics, Ramayana and Mahabharata. Both are not the stories of individuals, but of two families, stories of politics. The difference in both sets of narratives is very strong. The Greek epics are about individuals, whereas the Indian epics are about families.  The Greek narratives strongly manifests the roots of the Western psyche.

Ramayana is the story of three brothers taking place across the three different zones of the Indian subcontinent.  The first set of brothers are in the city of Ayodhya the father is a king called Dashrath, one brother is Ram and another brother is Bharat. The second set of brother is in a Jungle city, called Kishkindha (the kingdom of the monkeys). The father is Riksha, one brother is Bali (or Vali) and the other brother is Sugriv. Then there is the third set of Brothers In the Land of Lanka, the father is a sage Vaishnav (sometimes known as Puatsya); one brother is called Ravana and his brother is Kuber.

One day King Dashrath comes to the Crown Prince, Ram and says that Ram should renounce his right to the throne of kingdom of Ayodhya in favour of his co-brother Bharat. Ram agrees instantly, without any demur or remorse. . Bharat also declines to ascend the throne and vows to take care of the kingdom in the absence of Ram by placing Ram’s wooden sandals on the throne. This is a very ideal situation. This type of situation can occur only in North, not the geographical one, but the celestial one, where north is symbolized by the Pole Star. Meaning thereby that like the Pole Star, everything in north is constant, without subject to change w.r.t. circumstances. As may be observed Kailash is in north, under the Pole Star, symbolizing pure objectivity, an ideal. So Ram’s Ayodhya too is in north, a perfect place.

On the opposite end is South, where everything is always in the state of flux, changing constantly. This the land of Kuber and Ravana. Kuber is the guard of gold. He builds the city of Lanaka. It was not Ravan who build it. Ravan even did not inherit Lanka, he simply usurped it from Kuber. Lanka was built by Kuber on his own, so Ravan didi not have an iota of an ancestral inheritance right over it. The Lord of Lanka has forcefully acquired what did not at all belong to him.

In Kishkindha, father tells the two sons to share the property. However, there is some misunderstanding and Sugriv is deprived of his share. He approaches Ram , who is on his journey to release of his wife from an alpha male Ravan, who has become king of Lanka by usurping the throne from his bother. At that stage Vali also behaves like an alpha male, unwilling to any reasoning and sticking to his own point of view. There follows a battle between the two brothers. The entire battle is done without the code of conduct. Ram supports Sugriv in this battle. Vali acts like an animal during the entire battle and is killed by Ram. Sugriv has become the king of the monkeys so he behaves like a monkey, like an Alpha male. This is when Ram intervenes and tells Sugriv  not to go back to being an animal, now you have to behave with code of ethics, Dharama, which is what distinguished human being from the animal. You have to first show compassion for the defeated, which means you shall adopt Angad, the son of a brother Bali who was defeated. This is not what happens in the animal kingdom, the Alpha male will not adopt the progeny of the defeated.

This is the transformation taking place. Vali is much like Ravan, but Sugriv is being made to behave like Bharat. There is a balancing act; this the middle path. Even when Ravan is so well educated, so intelligent, so informed –equivalent of ten heads- but at a fundamental level he is behaving like a beast, wanting what others have and therefore the worst not the ideal. The land of the pole star is the land of wisdom, whereas this land of ignorance. Lanka is known as Maya Nagari, a phrase that says that this is the space of delusions. This is the place where you have wrong notions of the property, of the ownership that is rightfully not yours…..

The present episode ends at the point wherein the ground for the ‘right to the property’ is laid – at the level of morally and ethically what is right.

In our continuing journey of Devdutt Pattanaik’s TV serial Business Sutra, we will move on to the 2nd segment, Self and Self Image, of 8th episode, in our next episode.

Note: The images used in this post are the irrevocable property of their respective creator. They have been taken up courtesy the internet, so as to illustrate the point under discussion.